Futurist Amy Webb, co-author of The Genesis Machine, explains how money influences the development synthetic biology, and the risks we need to be aware of before it is too late.
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Full Transcript:
Bobbi Rebell:
Hey, grownup friends, a big thank you to so many of you that have already bought my new book, Launching Financial Grownups: Live Your Richest Life by Helping Your (Almost) Adult Kids Become Everyday Money Smart. This book was not easy to rate because I had to get honest with myself about what was working with my teen and young adult kids and what was not working. And I also had to be prepared to share it with all of you. So, first of all, thank you for your support and your wonderful responses to it. There's definitely some things in there that you may not have been expecting to hear. By the way, I got a lot of help from my money expert friends and also financial therapists and parenting experts.
Bobbi Rebell:
I am really happy with how Launching Financial Grownups came out even though it really was hard to be, like I said, that honest. And it was a lot of work, but I really love doing it and I'm really happy with how it came out. On that note, if you have not already, please pick up a copy of Launching Financial Grownups today. After you do, please share it on social media. Please leave a review on Amazon. Those reviews are super important because the algorithm picks up on them and that can make the book a lot more visible to more people. So, I truly appreciate it and I really also appreciate all of your support.
Amy Webb:
Hermès, they've got a bag coming out this year made of something that looks exactly like leather but is made out of a synthetic process. So, it's not like chemical-based, it's totally organic. It's just engineering cells to produce something different. That's going to retail for $4,000.
Bobbi Rebell:
You're listening to Money Tips for Financial Grownups with me, certified financial planner, Bobbi Rebell, author of Launching Financial Grownups. Because you know what, grownup life is really hard, but together, we got this. Hey grownups, we are going off script today for an epic topic because futurist Amy Webb is my guest. She is going to share information that you have not heard before but that we all need to be paying attention to because it is going to change everything you think you know literally about life. She basically reveals a lot about where money goes in our society. What is getting funded is going to shape the very genetics of humans in the future. It also, by the way, could mean the end of hangovers and diets.
Bobbi Rebell:
Also, look out for $4,000 plus Hermès bags not even made of leather. Yes, you heard that right. Now, at first, Amy's new book, The Genesis Machine: Our Quest to Rewrite Life in the Age of Synthetic Biology, which he co-wrote with scientist Andrew Hessel, may sound a bit intimidating, I certainly was. But I promise you, after our conversation, you're going to go out, you're going to get the book and you're going to read it. And by the way, she has many different accolades but Amy Webb is the founder and CEO of the Future Today Institute and a professor at NYU. Let's just get into it. Here is The Genesis Machine author, Amy Webb. Hey, Amy Webb, you're a financial grownup. Welcome to the podcast.
Amy Webb:
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
Bobbi Rebell:
That is, in this case, sort of besides the point because I am having you on for reasons that are about money but also at a new level. Money plays a big role in the topic we're going to talk about, which is synthetic biology. We're going to get to that in a minute. But first, I want to just put it out there. Your futurist, your latest book is called The Genesis Machine: Our Quest to Rewrite Life in the Age of Synthetic Biology. It's about an emerging technology that's going to allow us basically to edit and design new forms of life. So, set us up here. Tell us about what all this means.
Amy Webb:
Sure. And I should qualify maybe, futurist sounds like a strange job title and so it could be easy to dismiss. Me, if I have to say, I would too. That's a ridiculous made-up sounding job title. My academic background is game theory in economics. This is a branch of research called strategic foresight. And so, we use data and build out models to try to see what's happening in the present and anticipate what could happen in the future. So, I just bring that up first because this is kind of a weird book. It's a book about the technology that pretty soon is going to allow us to edit, redesign, or totally design from scratch new forms of life. And that's important because it gives us the ability to deal with existential threats like climate change, we just got some pretty horrifying news from the UN a couple days ago, and also to manage and mitigate novel pathogens.
Amy Webb:
So, we've got risks on the horizon, but this is the same technology that helps us potentially improve the human condition and improve longevity. The book is about this area of science that kind of incorporates gene editing, and DNA sequencing, and synthetic biology. These are new relatively areas of science and tech that combines engineering, and design, and computer science. And essentially, what this allows researchers to do is to program biology the way that you might program a computer. If you kind of forgot what you learned in biology class in high school, it's totally fine because this book is written for everyday people to understand what's coming because what's coming is it is enormous. I think 10 years from now, we're going to look back at this moment in time and be able to see how clearly things were changing right before our eyes. I think we're going to eventually be talking about synthetic biology the way we talk about AI today.
Bobbi Rebell:
And this is, in fact, has a lot in common with AI which you covered in your previous book, including the story of where the money flows. Can you talk a little bit about the fact that a lot of science is very underfunded but yet it's interesting who is funding this and what money is going into this and what purpose that's going to have in the future.
Amy Webb:
Right. So, everybody's thinking about NFTs in the metaverse right now, but this is kind of a really interesting area that some big unusual names are paying very close attention to. Bill Gates is a big proponent of this tech and a big investor in this space. But so is Eric Schmidt. Eric Schmidt, as some of you probably know, used to be the head of Google. One of the things that's interesting is that there's actually kind of an overlap between the VCs, and the hedge funds, and a lot of the investment community that funds AI, and those who are funding the future of synthetic biology, as strange as that sounds. I can give you a concrete example. In part because of SARS-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes COVID-19, this acted as a catalyst. Suddenly, everybody was trying to find a way to test and diagnose and then treat this horrible pathogen.
Amy Webb:
But that had some interesting knock-on effects. I think it was like two weeks ago, some biotech veterans raised $3 billion, that is billion with a B, to create a new company called Altos Labs on the premise that the fundamental machinery of life, which is cells, can be reprogrammed. If they raised $3 billion, think of what the valuation, the pitch must be. I mean, it's like incomprehensible. I bring this up just to say this is not a bunch of weirdos playing biohacker in their garage. This is real stuff and this is on a long time horizon, and there are majors in the space that are investing. But also, Google has a division dedicated to research in this space, so does Microsoft. Microsoft is trying to figure out how to use DNA as a storage device, which is kind of insane, right? But they're working in this space too.
Bobbi Rebell:
Yeah and I should say what you mean is to store data inside of DNA-
Amy Webb:
Yeah.
Bobbi Rebell:
... which is bananas. One of my favorite parts of the book is you talk about the futures and you talk about different scenarios of how this could be used in our practical lives. And when you think about those scenarios, you think, "What would people pay for this?" For example, you talk about the idea of no longer having hangovers, of no longer having to diet when you want to lose weight because of the things that we can do to our food and to the way that we consume food. Tell us more about that, because to me, that's an investment I want to make-
Amy Webb:
Yeah.
Bobbi Rebell:
... both as a consumer, I want that technology, and also as an investor.
Amy Webb:
Right. On the consumer side of things, I think it's worth noting that you can already get an entire genome sequenced for less than the cost of a pair of Nike Air Jordans. And that's pretty spectacular that prices come down by orders of magnitude since the first human genome, with the first draft was completed in the early 2000s. What does that mean? That means that a lot of people are sending off their samples to 23andMe and similar types of services, which pre-COVID probably was a select few. But in the age of COVID, we're used to giving our DNA samples to anybody who feels like, literally in New York City, I had to get a COVID test a couple months ago and I went to a guy in a van. And I was like, "Yeah, take my data. I guess that's what we're doing now," which is terrifying at any rate.
Amy Webb:
There's just this entire economy that's blossoming, that's blossoming now, but there's some practical reasons why. So, with regard to Microsoft, at some point, our computers can only get so small and they can only get so powerful. And we also have a geopolitical problem because most of our semiconductors come from a troubled region of the world. So, I think some of what's going on here is, can we reduce some of the soul-crushing uncertainty of our supply chains? And can we shrink components down to like nanoscale? Which again, I know it sounds insane, but there's a company called Roswell Technology that just did this. They just made an announcement of the world's first molecular chip. It has 16,000 sensors on it, smaller than the size of a fingernail. It makes use of biology as a computing platform.
Amy Webb:
So, again, I know all this sounds crazy, but their practical reasons that we describe in the scenarios, obviously, this changes food. It means that a couple of Super Bowls from now, the 1.45 billion with a B chicken wings that we consume on a single day in the United States won't have to come from 750,000 chickens. We could get it all out of a bioreactor. And bioreactors could be in every town and every city so it drastically shorten supply chains. In the beauty space, that's actually a pretty mature area where this research is already being applied, so just different approaches to products that make your cells work for you versus a cream or something that layers on top of your skin and doesn't really solve any problems to totally different ways that were going to produce materials.
Amy Webb:
I've seen some leather already that is made out of mycelium. It's made out of the fibrous material that connects mushrooms. And you would never know the difference. In fact, Hermès, I don't, obviously I carry many Hermès's bags. I don't know how to say that correctly, I'm not fancy. They've got a bag coming out this year made of something that looks exactly like leather but is made out of a synthetic process. So, it's not like chemical-based, it's totally organic. It's just engineering cells to produce something different. That's going to retail for $4,000, I think.
Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. So wait, so just to circle back though in terms of the not gaining weight and in terms of the not having a hangover, because I know people want to hear that.
Amy Webb:
Yeah. So, there is a product, I think it's in the market already, it's an enzyme. It's kind of like functions a little bit like a probiotic. So, the idea is before were a night out drinking, you would take this enzyme and probably still get pretty drunk if that's what you were trying to do but it would prevent the after effects, the hangover part. But what's really interesting is, couldn't you just engineer a molecular whiskey or like a bioengineered wine to have that enzyme side of it already so that you just don't suffer those ill effects afterwards? And that research is underway and you can already buy some functional beverages that are hoping to do some of that.
Bobbi Rebell:
And the dieting?
Amy Webb:
The dieting is something that people are looking at. That one's a little bit more tricky because there is what causes hunger and then there's the mental, like the part of you that wants to eat, so there's deeply rooted psychological things that have to do with that as well.
Bobbi Rebell:
So, it's out there but it's a longer timeline. All right. We don't have that much time left and I want to touch on risks. You talk about nine risks in the book. We can't go out to all of them. But one thing that I find fascinating is that you talked about, we gave our DNA to these random trucks on the street to get these tests for COVID. We leave DNA all over the place. And this is true, for example, you talked about the example of CEOs. They leave DNA all over the place. Someone could program, could somehow take the DNA and you could explain this better than I can, but they can be a little bit mischievous. Talk through that scenario of what could happen and how this could affect the company if the CEO's health is compromised through having their DNA effectively stolen.
Amy Webb:
Right. So, I know this sounds insane, but if you recall, President Macron of France met with Putin just before Russia started its attack and he refused to have a COVID test because he didn't want his data housed within Russia. And some people made fun of him but he was really smart to do that. A couple of years ago, there was a artists collective/activists collective that said that after WEF, so after the World Economic Forum Meeting in Davos, I was actually at that one, I'm assuming that I am nowhere near important enough that anybody went around to collect my stuff, my data, but they collected used napkins and coffee cups and things from world leaders and scraped the DNA off, had it sequenced and said, "We're going to auction off your sequences to the highest bidder."
Amy Webb:
Now, that is challenging to do but it's not impossible to do. And it does beg the question, "If I have your sequence, can I engineer something, some type of virus that is maybe not deadly but is debilitating?" And if you, as a CEO or you as a global leader had like chronic stomach pain or chronic diarrhea or something like that, the question I ask is, "Well, what fiduciary responsibility do you have to report that to your board and to shareholders and what do you do about it?" I mean, that's one of these weird questions, but we're already starting to see malware show up in sort of new ways and new forms of corporate espionage that involve biology. And it's not out of the realm of possibility that we could start seeing biological malware enter the mainstream here and there, which is kind of scary.
Bobbi Rebell:
It's really scary. Okay, I'm going to pivot one last quick question.
Amy Webb:
Yeah.
Bobbi Rebell:
Not a very smooth transition, but I know there's already ETFs out there that people can invest in.
Amy Webb:
Oh yeah.
Bobbi Rebell:
Can you share a little bit about how people can invest in this space?
Amy Webb:
Yeah. And I want to be clear, I'm not specifically making investment advice, but there are ETFs, there's also a lot of thematic investing, Cathie Wood's ARK capital management or is it ARK investments? So, synthetic biology is a big piece and they have an ETF. Franklin Templeton launched an ETF. So, there are funds that exist and they're performing pretty well, but there's also individual companies that either IPOed or SPACed. So, Ginkgo Bioworks is an example of the latter but they're performing pretty well. They make custom microbes. Twist Bioscience is a really interesting company. It's an infrastructure company and those are always good to look at when a new ecosystem is forming.
Bobbi Rebell:
Very, very interesting. And by the way, if anyone wants a little more incentive to buy Amy's book, there is more information on page 96. So, you got to go to the book to get more info. Amy, this has been amazing. Tell us more about where people can find out more about you. I know your book is available everywhere.
Amy Webb:
Thank you. The book's available everywhere. Independent local bookstore is terrific but it's also available on Amazon and Walmart and everywhere books are sold online. And if you're interested in trends and what's on the horizon, all of our work is open source and freely available to download at the futuretodayinstitute.com. We've got our 15th annual Tech Trends Report launching in about two weeks at South By South West. And there are, I guess you're the first to know this, we have 574 trends this year spread across 13 individual volumes and like 20 different industries. So, it's pretty enormous.
Bobbi Rebell:
Wow. Well, thank you so much for being here on Financial Grownup and good luck with everything. Thank you.
Amy Webb:
Thank you.
Bobbi Rebell:
Okay, friends, I'll admit it, I am a little obsessed with this Hermès bag is going to be and whether it will be like synthetic diamonds where it is still not considered real or whether because it's so cool and new it's going to be considered something better than I guess what we would say the real thing was. This stuff is so cool. I also really found it interesting that we can all invest in synthetic biology. Let me know if you're going to do that. This episode was pretty intense, but I hope you enjoyed it. I usually cut interviews down but I did not want to have you guys miss anything I had to say. So, it is really all there and there is so much more in her book. So definitely, pick up Amy's book, The Genesis Machine. Check out the Future Today Institute for more incredibly cool info.
Bobbi Rebell:
It's so generous that they make everything open source, so cool. If you enjoyed this episode, please share on social. Tag me on Instagram @bobbirebell1 if you do so. And big social media news, I started a TikTok channel. I have no idea what I'm doing so please follow me for all the cringiest videos ever. Super easy to find, just Bobbi Rebell, that is my TikTok handle. Thank you to everyone buying my book, Launching Financial Grownups, and for leaving reviews on Amazon. Algorithms pick up on that stuff so I really need your support. Please leave an Amazon review. Loved having Amy Webb of the Future Today Institute on talking about her latest bestseller, The Genesis Machine, and thanks Amy for helping us all be financial grownups.
Bobbi Rebell:
Money Tips for Financial Grownups is a production of BRK Media LLC, editing and production by Steve Stewart, guest coordination, content creation, social media support and show notes by Ashley Wall. You can find the podcast show notes which include links to resources mentioned in the show as well as show transcripts by going to my website, bobbirebell.com. You can also find an incredible library of hundreds of previous episodes to help you on your journey as a financial grownup. The podcast and tons of complimentary resources associated with the podcast is brought to you for free, but I need to have your support in return. Here's how you can do that. First, connect with me on social media @bobbirebell1 on Instagram and Bobbi Rebell on both Twitter and on Clubhouse where you can join my Money Tips for Grownups Club.
Bobbi Rebell:
Second, share this podcast on social media and tag me so I can thank you. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Reading each one means the world to me. You know what, it really motivates others to subscribe. You can also support our merch shop, grownupgear.com, by picking up fun gifts for your grownup friends and treating yourself as well. And most of all, help your friends on their journey to being financial grownups by encouraging them to subscribe to the podcast. Together, we got this. Thank you for your time and for the kind words so many of you send my way. See you next time and thank you for supporting Money Tips for Financial Grownups.